On this episode of The Six Five– Insider Edition, hosts Daniel Newman and Patrick Moorhead welcome Micron’s Chris Moore, Vice President of Marketing, Mobile Business Unit for a conversation on their recent announcement of Micron UFS 4.0 and more.
Their discussion covers:
- Micron’s announcements on Universal Flash Storage 4.0 and how this embedded flash storage solution is a game changer for flagship smartphone makers
- Highlights of use cases with Micron UFS 4.0, including enabling Generative AI, future capacity, as well as data-intensive use cases on mobile phones
- Why and how Micron innovates these proprietary assets, and the unique benefits that delivers
- Micron’s perspective on what’s next in mobile, and types innovations they are actively exploring
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You can listen to the conversation here:
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Patrick Moorhead: Hi, this is Pat Moorhead and we are back for another Six Five Insider. We are talking smartphones. We’re talking mobile. We’re talking UFS. Dan, how you doing my friend?
Daniel Newman: It’s good to be back. Always good to hop on the Insider and even better talk in mobile, Pat. I got to say, I’m sure we’ll get into it, but it’s actually kind of a nice reprieve to talk about something that isn’t generative AI.
Patrick Moorhead: Exactly. But I’m hoping we can talk about how UFS helps in generative AI.
Daniel Newman: I mean, we’ll get there. I told you. We’ll get there, but it’s good that it’s not in the header. At least gives me some hope that there’s still other things that we as analysts can talk about.
Patrick Moorhead: I know. Well, hey, let’s stop talking about ourselves and our show. But hey, if you are new to the Six Five, we’re going to first wonder what’s wrong with you, because everybody’s heard of the Six Five, I think. But this is a special show we have for those who are inside, hence Insiders, the most relevant companies and the most influential executives. And with that, I want to introduce Chris Moore. Chris, how are you doing?
Chris Moore: Doing well. How are you guys doing today?
Patrick Moorhead: Doing great. We all kind of rolled off the holiday, but it’s awesome to be back in the saddle. And quite frankly, when you only take one day off, it’s not a big time off.
Chris Moore: Yeah. And when Asia and other places don’t get that day off, it’s definitely not necessarily a day off.
Patrick Moorhead: Exactly. Tech is global and there we go.
Daniel Newman: It’s a bit of a trap day though, right? I mean the Fourth falling on a Tuesday, I wonder how many more people took that Monday off than if it had fallen on a Thursday.
Chris Moore: Yeah, I think that.
Daniel Newman: I imagine the worst for most of us would be a Wednesday because then people would feel obligated, because you either take the late day of the week to make it a longer weekend or you take the long weekend. Anyways, I digress. I was working, but that’s just kind of normal.
But Chris, let’s talk about what’s going on with the Universal Flash Storage announcement. I saw the announcement come out, you guys launched and announced UFS 4.0, 4.0. I don’t know how you like to say it. Tell us a little bit, in your words, why and how this embedded flash storage solution is the game changer for the flagship smartphone makers.
Chris Moore: Sure. Well, first of all, it enables generative AI. I’m just kidding.
Daniel Newman: We got there.
Patrick Moorhead: Here we go. Hang on a second. Drink.
Chris Moore: No, the UFS 4.0 was the latest of the NAND specs that are used inside of flagship cell phone. It literally doubles the speed from the UFS 3.1, the previous spec. So you’re going to be able to download those videos faster, you’re going to be able to take those images faster. And if you want to store a whole lot of data needed for things like generative ai, you’ll be able to access it that much faster as well.
So it’s a great, great new interface and I’m really proud to announce that Micron is now sampling our latest product to OEM customers who are going through their qualifications now. And the Micron product is a leadership product. All of our benchmarks show that it is the fastest in the world and it’s really just proud of the entire team. To put this thing together, it’s not easy to come out with something on a new interface and have it be the highest performing benchmarks and the best actual usage in someone’s hands on the first shot out. So really just proud to be able to represent Micron and the team with this great new product.
Patrick Moorhead: Yeah, I love benchmarks. I think I’ve been on the board of three benchmark companies in the last 30 some years, and everybody loves benchmarks, everybody hate benchmarks. But the thing about it is directionally they tell a story and they get the industry moving in a certain direction. And I love that you’re coming out with a highest performance product. It’s hard to make hay starting at the mid-range, right. And the other thing about starting at the peak, is you can waterfall everything down to your lines, different lines over time.
I am curious, what is your basic approach to staying ahead of the technology, putting up these incredible benchmarks. And by the way, stick to low power, because it’s not easy. I mean, high performance, low power, you typically don’t see in the same sentence, there’s trade off in almost all other markets.
Chris Moore: That’s absolutely true, and it’s especially true in mobile. As you can imagine, your handset is one of the most power conscious devices out there, and there’s a lot of people that want to make sure that they can use their phone all day without charging or potentially even more than one day without charging, and that’s a major focus for us. What we do, we have an architecture team, a system architecture team, that actually doesn’t focus on benchmarks. Benchmarks will happen if you design it right in the first place. And our focus is really on the end user. I can give a couple examples of some things that we’ve added to this product in a minute or two to enhance that discussion.
What we do is we have what we call a days-of-use model, and we’re not the first people in the world to do that. I’m sure you’ve heard it from others before, but we have our own proprietary view of how different users use the phone, how the memory and the storage interact with the application process or the modem, et cetera. And then we look and we optimize our devices around that days-of-use model. And if we get that right, the benchmark is going to waterfall out of it. We don’t have to focus on what Andrew Bench or what you are doing and try and reverse engineer everything. We’re trying to figure out what you are doing with your phone or what my son is doing with his phone and optimize usage there.
One example I give is we have a custom feature on the product we just launched now, the UFS 4.0 that’s called ARB, or automatic read burst. Lots of the benchmarks don’t tell the story of what happens after you’ve been using your phone for six months. Generally it slows down.
Patrick Moorhead: It feels like it slows down, for sure.
Chris Moore: And a part of that is because of us old folks that remember MS-DOS Defrag, right? When you’re writing data down to the drive, over time it’s going to get fragmented. And then it takes a lot longer to read something over a fragmented disc as opposed to something that’s been cleaned up. What we do is in the background with our automatic read burst technology, this new feature, we go and actually sequentialize all the data appropriately so that when someone is using their phone after six months, it’ll look just like it did when they first bought it. That’s a kind of example of Micron adding its own technology, its own ingenuity. Looking at, again, how are you really going to use this thing, not how is it going to look out of the box on the first day.
By doing that, we also focus on power. We have a team that’s looking again at the power across the device. Days of use is not just how many bits and bytes are written across the system, but how long that battery’s going to last. And our customers really care about that. And so actually we get about, I think about a 15%, I’m sorry, 25% more power efficiency on the UFS 4.0 Than we did on our previous devices. So we’re very, very focused on not just the feeds and speeds, but the power. Again, our whole design team, everything is centered on the end user. And if we get that right, again, the benchmarks will fall out. Our customers will be happy because their customers are happy and hopefully you guys are happy as well.
Daniel Newman: So I mean, yes, we like when the vendors set out to make the analysts happy. I think that’s good stuff. But I mean, I think moreover, the ability to put this technology through its paces- the ability to put this technology through its paces, show the world that these use cases are going to create meaningful generation over generation improvements and performance power. These are things people care about. I love that you jokingly, half jokingly, responded to my first question by saying generative AI, because it is true. I mean, I looked at a stat today, there was one interesting data point that came out, something like what CEOs care about quarter over quarter. And the CEO interest from last quarter to this quarter in generative AI is up 140%. I mean it is all that … it’s in every boardroom, it’s all people are talking about. So making that connection, we don’t mind. We do joke, but I digress.
You shared a few of interesting use cases in there, what’d you say, downloads two hours of 4K videos in 15 seconds. Can you talk about maybe some of the other ways? I think that’s been one of the hardest things for phone generation over generation, whether it’s Apple, Samsung, anyone that has a hard time saying, “When I go from this phone to the next phone, what am I really getting?” So is this one of those things? You gave one good example. Are there some other examples that you can share that’s going to create excitement for those that are running out to buy the next flagship device?
Chris Moore: Yeah, I think you’re touching on a good point. And truthfully speaking, there’s been a lot of incrementalism in the mobile world the last few years. You get a slightly better camera, the display gets a little bit better every single gen. And that’s still happening, but those incremental things add up over the years, for sure. Another thing is with older phones, the battery just wears out over time so you need to go replace the battery or get a new phone, and the battery technology is getting better and better. I honestly feel that what you touched on is really the next thing that’s coming in mobile that’s going to change everything, and it is generative AI. I mean, last time we spoke we were in Barcelona and we saw the stable diffusion demonstration by Qualcomm, where there are actually … I think you guys made a cat with a rainbow uniform or something like that. I don’t remember what it –
Patrick Moorhead: Guilty. Yeah, just something that I thought there was no way it could do and it did it.
Chris Moore: And there’s no doubt … you’re spending a lot of time talking about generative AI. I’m spending a lot of time trying to think through what the next applications are downstream. It’s coming to the edge. There’s no doubt in my mind. The only question is exactly when and how, and I’m sure we’re going to start to see that coming out very, very soon. Certainly when you have major people like Qualcomm already demonstrating that in Barcelona, you know that there’s a lot of time and effort being spent on that. Maybe it’ll end up being the new Moore’s Law, where how fast will these algorithms make their way to the edge? How fast will they improve in the cloud? On the phones that are coming out with the UFS 4.0, one of the things that you’ll see with these speeds, I know for me, I was actually just traveling for the last two weeks and I like to download the latest movies from pick your streaming company before I get on long, long airplane flights.
That can take me a long time at times. And sometimes something comes out and I just don’t have time to do it and I gotta do it at the airport really fast. So while it feels like incrementalism, being able to download those six or eight movies in half the time is a big deal to me. It really is a big deal. That saves me very precious minutes that none of us have a lot of. The cameras themselves are getting stronger and stronger. You can now stream in 8K, you can do all of these things. So definitely seeing in the near term a requirement for higher capacity, requirements for higher speed. One of the things we’re seeing a lot of is video memes. Video memes take up a lot of space on your device and take up a lot of –
Patrick Moorhead: God I love memes. Did you say memes?
Chris Moore: I did. Do I say it –
Patrick Moorhead: Gosh, yeah. Yes. Twitter and Instagram.
Daniel Newman: I have staff members that send memes of me back to me, when I’m chugging a Red Bull. There’s like a meme of me. It’s horrible. Funny.
Chris Moore: Those take … I mean video is really the way we communicate now. I mean with your favorite short form video that’s out there, taking up a ton of space on the web, taking up a ton of space in your device. And you want that speed to be able to make it work in real time and edit it in real time and do all those things that the younger generation … I already mentioned my son earlier, that the younger generation is doing on the phones today and what they’ll be doing tomorrow. So I guess in summary, short term, definitely these new specs enable just better usage for the applications we see today, but I do believe in the medium to long term, you’re going to definitely see AI be a much bigger part of the phone and your handset and how you use it. I mean, in my kind of crazy marketing world, why wouldn’t the OS actually be based on a generative AI system? If you really take it, why –
Patrick Moorhead: Do you have six hours so we can talk about that?
Chris Moore: I spend a lot more than six hours thinking about it. I’d love to have someone talk to you about it. But yeah, I mean that’s really … coming again down to how do we come out with leadership products, it’s through thinking about what’s not there today and how is it going to look. And we have to go work with our ecosystem partners on what they’re working on for things that are three years, five years down the pipe. This UFS4 product didn’t get designed in a year. It got designed in three years, based upon what we were thinking three years ago, what was going to be required today. So now we’re spending a lot of time thinking about what’s going to come out in the next three to five years and making sure we get it out.
Patrick Moorhead: Okay. I’m going to challenge you on that then. So your current solution comes out at one terabyte, your UFS 4.0 solution. And we talked a little bit about AI and those generative models and how large they are, but how are you looking at capacity increases in the future? AI is important and I want you to dive into that to put more color to it, but are there other data intensive use cases that you’re looking at that make the performance and the size, the capacity of those even more important?
Chris Moore: Well, absolutely. I think 256 and 512 are probably the more sweet spots today, and one terabyte you always want to enable for the next, that super user. And that’s why we have the one terabyte out there. The applications that are driving that really are video, high quality, high density video, whether it’s video that you’re mailing through your favorite email device or whether it’s video from a meme like we were joking about a few minutes ago. They take up a lot of space. And these screens are getting better and better, so people want higher quality. Moreover, sometimes I take my device when I’m on the road and I actually link it to the hotel TV. So I want to make sure I have high quality video there that I can watch on that TV. So that is by far the number one driver for capacity today.
The other thing you see when you buy a new device, the first thing you do is backup all your old stuff on it. So it’s not like you’re starting from scratch every time. A lot of times when I would get a new PC, I would start from scratch on the PC, but when you get a new phone, the first thing you do is copy all the old data on. So we’re definitely seeing value in the higher capacities. You’re seeing more and more flagship phones. I can’t name specific customers, but one terabyte has been out there for quite a while. So will you see 1.5 terabyte, two terabyte? Absolutely. No doubt about it. It’s coming.
Daniel Newman: So part of the build too has a lot to do with how you build this around the firmware. You do a lot of this on your own to be able to control your innovation and control the development of your products, but at the same time, sometimes you can go faster when you don’t take those in-house and you don’t … obviously it can be ecosystem driven, but for Micron, it’s internally driven controller, it’s internally driven firmware. Talk about why Micron takes that approach to do it proprietary and how you think that enables you to be more, whether it drives more innovation or more unique in the outcome?
Chris Moore: Sure. Well, this product was internally developed. We developed our own controller, our own firmware, and of course our own NAND. Let me start with the NAND. The higher capacities, the 512 and the one terabyte device, actually use a 6-plane, 232 layer NAND. That 6-plane device allows you to operate more bits in parallel and therefore give you a higher bandwidth for better random read operations, for example. If you can access six different addresses at the same time, as opposed to four, you’re going to get better random reads, right? That’s part of why we do that in house is that we want to optimize around what are the most important specs for the end user? Again, why is random read important? Well, when you’re operating an executable application, the device is not sequentially written down so you need that better random read performance and that’s why we made that design decision from the beginning.
Then we designed our own controller and why do we design our own controller? Because we want to make sure we optimize the amount of SRAM on that controller for the amount of data that we’re going to be piping through. For example, if the 6-plane architecture, you may want to have a different SRAM size than you would in a 4-plane architecture. We can optimize the system all the way through from the beginning of the NAND to the controller and then how the firmware actually works within the controller to manipulate the data itself for features like I mentioned before, the ARB feature, the automatic read burst. We designed it all from scratch in-house. It gives you a better overall experience, better optimized power, better optimized performance.
Additionally, in this day and age, you really need to own your own supply chain. I mean, we all saw what happened in 2020/2021 with supply chain disruptions. By doing all that in house, we guarantee the performance, the power. We guarantee our own supply chain. And, of course, when it integrates all together, you get a better quality product out the door.
That said, I do want to be careful because we do still use third party controllers when appropriate. When you’re doing a UFS, screening UFS 4.0 product, there may not be many controllers, if any, out there that you can use, right? To be on the front edge, you want to be designing that yourself. But there are some interfaces that have been around for a long time where you want to take advantage of what’s already out there and you don’t necessarily need the screening fast performance. There we have a model that’ll allow us to go work with those third party controller vendors. Whether we do the firmware ourselves or leverage them, we work with them and we obviously do all the testing and qualify it. It’s got our brand on it. It’s got to be high quality so we make sure that we test the end product all the way through when we go through that model. Hopefully that makes sense.
Patrick Moorhead: Yeah. I know that your customers and the end users appreciate that extra R&D that you’re putting in there to get there, quite frankly, first. What that does is getting there first with all types of components, whether it’s compute, memory, storage, graphics, NPU is always in service of the future. And we talked a little bit about what’s next in mobility and I’d like to extend the definition of mobility, as well, as not just smartphones, right? Smartphones, tablets, and we’re going to see just a barrage of smartphone based SOCs getting into the PC market. So I’m super excited about that. But what is next in mobility? What are you looking at? We talked a little bit about videos that are out there. We talked about memes. It’s important. I need to make sure that I put meme in all of my research as a key driver of this, but it’s actually true. I mean, creating a meme on a smartphone. I did it five days ago and stuck it on Twitter.
Daniel Newman: What was it of? Was that the one of you in the boat?
Patrick Moorhead: Exactly.
Daniel Newman: Where you guys went without me?
Patrick Moorhead: Exactly. Yeah, that’s exactly what we did because I wanted to rub it in your face that you didn’t come on the boat with us.
Daniel Newman: Yeah. See Chris, this is what I get to deal with.
Chris Moore: Right.
Daniel Newman: It’s good though-
Chris Moore: That’s also what we do with my coworkers.
Patrick Moorhead: So kind of pulling this in, what are you looking at in terms of the future innovations in mobility?
Chris Moore: Well, there’s the incrementalism, right? The next generation cameras and all that, but I don’t think you’re asking about that. We’ve touched on-
Patrick Moorhead: No, these are bigger swings.
Chris Moore: We’ve touched on AI. Definitely spending a lot of time on that, working with our partners. One thing I like to think about is why does your phone look like it does? And the answer is the display and the UI. That’s what really drives it. And I really agree with you. I think that there’s going to be a preponderance of new devices that are coming out. I see you guys all have your smart watches on. I know I have mine on. Different brands, different usage. Mine is more of a fitness one than the one that you see around that most people wear. There’s going to be more specialized devices, more ways of interfacing with the Cloud, more what goes on in the Cloud is going to work its way to the edge, kind of hybrid computing. Some of the compute will be done at the edge. What can’t be done at the edge will move to the Cloud. How much inference versus training will happen at the edge I think is one of the big questions we could spend four hours talking about.
Patrick Moorhead: Let’s do it. Let’s book it. You heard this. No, I know. Seriously, we probably talk about as much AI on the edge as we do in the data center and everything in between. So I love that. Let’s book it. I’ll get it on the calendar, Chris.
Chris Moore: Yeah, later this summer or early fall. Actually I had some things we may be able to talk about there. Really.
Daniel Newman: In the cloud.
Chris Moore: Again, if your UI changes, if the way you interface with the phone changes, it doesn’t need to be this flat device anymore. And then some people start saying, “Well, when you have these new devices coming out,” Convergence, right? People have been talking about the convergence of the PC for years. The PC and the phone are going to converge. My personal belief is things don’t converge. I’m looking at five devices within my site right now. People end up carrying … Oh, and I forgot about my watch. Six. People end up having more, right? Not less. And they use them for very specialized purposes. So what I think is coming is as you use devices and the way that they’re specialized for whatever their use is and how you interface with it, you will end up having more and more devices on you. Your phone may look different.
I mean, what if you had a necklace or a watch that had LIDAR in it and instead of tapping on your phone, you just moved your hand around like this. I mean, it’s not too crazy to think of the world where you have that heads up display in your glasses and a LIDAR somewhere and you’re actually interfacing that way. So I love this question. It’s what I get paid to think about, it’s why I love my job, is what could happen in the future. I don’t think your phone’s going away, don’t get me wrong. You’re still going to have a phone. You’re still going to have that flat device with that screen on it because it’s so intuitive and easy to use. But you’re going to have a lot more devices and they’re all going to be talking to each other. The internet of things is kind of cliche, and I know people have said it’s come and gone. It’s still coming. We don’t even recognize that it’s happening. It’s just incrementally happening around us.
Daniel Newman: I think you made some great points, and one of the things that I’ve been thinking a lot about is what does mobility AI, spatial computing? We know that with Apple getting into it, it’s going to become mainstream. They don’t get into anything that doesn’t become mainstream. We can argue about what 1.0 looks like, but we know that this means, and I think you brought some great examples. I’ve been saying for a long time that the way our posture has changed because of the device leaves room for innovation. First of all, we’ve actually lost the ability to have meaningful interactions in the physical world because we all spend our time in two or three places at once.
Chris Moore: That’s right.
Daniel Newman: And so how do we merge these things in a way that’s elegant and gives us the ability to have access to information? Because, also, the way we’re learning is changing, Chris. My kids are taking AP tests and SAT tests and we used to memorize things. We’re a little older and we’re all, even amongst ourselves, maybe different ages, but they don’t memorize anything anymore. They don’t know how to do math in their heads because they’ve never in their life had to do that.
And so even getting data, being able to calculate or reroute a map, they don’t have great sense of direction because they’ve always had a map in their face. And what I’m saying though is, we all look at it, we’re old so we like to criticize it, but why is that bad? Why is that bad versus good with all that information because your brain can only do so many things? So what I guess I’m saying is, with memory and the way we architect the opportunities for new devices that enable us to evolve as much as technology has evolved is actually really fascinating.
Chris Moore: It is. I think I just heard your first get off my lawn moment, by the way.
Daniel Newman: Oh, yeah. It’s the first one on the record with you.
Chris Moore: I totally agree with you. I always make the joke in my family. I imagine in the 1950s there were a bunch of parents that were upset with color crayons like, “Go outside and play. Quit using those crayons,” the analogy of how technology moves forward. And it’s not bad, it’s just different, and we have to accept it. My job and your job as well is to embrace it and to figure out what’s next. And coming back to the product today, the UFS 4.0, with those literally twice the speeds and the capacity points up to one terabyte, it’s cliche and I think I may have even said this to you in Barcelona, but my job is to make sure the hardware gets out of the way. That is 100% of what we’re doing is, how do we design for the future? How do we design for those future apps and make sure that the hardware’s out of the way?
And right now we’ve got a leadership product. I’m saying leadership. I’m not saying best in class. It’s beating everybody, as I said in the benchmarks. Really looking forward to when the phones come out. We can point to them and you can see how it works in your hands this fall and approaching Mobile World Congress next year, and doing it at the same time, as we said, without killing your battery. Just really, again, proud of the whole team. Let me throw out another thing that we did on this device, another custom feature we came out with. Do you know how hard it is to debug a cell phone when you’re bringing it up during design? Look at how small all these PCBs are that are inside a phone and dual layer PCBs and trying to get in there and debug something and then realize that we’re transferring at 4.3, 4.4 gigabytes per second. Huge transfer rates and the LPDRAM is running super fast.
What we did in this device is something called I-monitoring. And we actually sample the input on the IC so that you don’t have to connect an oscilloscope to the PCV to see how clean that signal integrity is. So a data eye, if you know what a data eye is, if you imagine you have the inputs and outputs, high is one, low is zero, and then as your data is swinging, like this, I know this isn’t going to look good on the podcast, but imagine as you’re going input high to low and then you go across and another one goes from low to high, you have this “eye” in the middle. That’s how it ends up looking, where the lines go like that. We actually sample that and then allow the designer to just use our chip to make sure that their signal integrity is working fine. They don’t have to attach an oscilloscope to it.
In this business, time to market, time to money is everything, so if you can make it that much easier for your customer to debug the part and a part that we just take for granted that the signals going from chip to chip are actually clean and look right, we take that out of their hands and we make it that much easier for them. And that’s, again, something that our customers like working with us. We like working with them. And really, again, trying to just be innovative about, what can we do to make the world better? What can we do to make our customers and our customers’ customers world better? Again, it’s a little cliche, but it really is why we get up every day and what we’re doing.
Daniel Newman: There’s nothing wrong with loving what you do, and you mentioned something like time is money. So this is where I do a cliche and I go, Chris, time is money, so we better let you get back at it. But, in all seriousness, thank you so much for joining us here today on the Six Five Podcast.
Chris Moore: Lot of fun. Really look forward to talking to you again about edge AI coming soon.
Daniel Newman: Noted. We will.
Patrick Moorhead: I want to compare notes on that. Both of our companies have done research on that and from different angles. There’s the art of the possibility and then there’s the tech that gets there, and we all want that to marry together to create value for the ecosystem and, fundamentally, then to the end user. And I’m super excited about the different form factors, generative AI. And what I always say about tech too, you said, “It’s not this or the other.” Technology, most part, has been about “ands”, as opposed to this technology going away. Now, listen, the MP3 player got sucked into the smartphone. The GPS, aside from certain industrial and military and sports stuff, got sucked into the smartphone. But we really are creating more form factors out there and more ways to either live a better life or run a more efficient and more profitable business.
Chris Moore: Totally.
Daniel Newman: Pat, I would say it’s a series of aggregators and dis-aggregators. It’s just like, we go on-prem, we go back to the cloud. We make our devices smaller or we make them bigger. Society, it’s fashion. There’s probably a parallel between tech and fashion that’s probably pretty fascinating of how things go through cycles and then they come back into vogue again, and we could do that as well on a future show. I was in the process. I was trying to let Chris go back to work.
Patrick Moorhead: I’m sorry. I couldn’t help myself.
Daniel Newman: It’s okay. I will forgive you.
Patrick Moorhead: I got excited.
Daniel Newman: I will give you a lot of grief after we get offline. But, for now, Chris, thanks so much for joining the show. We look forward to having you back soon.
Chris Moore: Thanks. It’s been a great pleasure being here. And I look forward to the next fishing trip, by the way.
Daniel Newman: Absolutely. Everyone out there, go ahead and hit that subscribe button. Join us for all of our Six Five episodes. We love these insider shows. We also appreciate when you go on the road with us, you join us at our summit, or just our weekly Friday podcast. But for this episode, for Patrick Moorhead and myself, it’s time to say goodbye. We’ll see you all later.